00:00:00:04 – 00:00:05:18
Dr. Pamela Marzban
I put a lot of sugar in the Mars band Kool Aid, and they drank a lot.

00:00:07:03 – 00:00:30:26
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Welcome to the Marketing Chair Side Podcast by Pro Impressions Marketing, where the team covers a variety of dental marketing ideas to help you attract more new patients in the quantity and quality you need to grow your practice. If you’ve ever wanted to pick the brain of a really successful dental office, if you’re just stuck, you’re struggling, you can’t get that next level.

00:00:31:05 – 00:00:39:16
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
I’ve got some people that you’re going to want to hear from. I’ve got Cherien. She’s the office manager at Frisian Dentistry. Hello, Cherien.

00:00:39:29 – 00:00:41:08
Shireen Firouzian
Hi, Jonathan.

00:00:41:26 – 00:00:54:08
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And as if I’m doing great. I’m really excited to be here. I’m always excited to be here. As if one brilliant mind in dental business isn’t enough. I’ve got also Dr. Stephanie Kinsey here.

00:00:55:00 – 00:00:55:23
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
Hi, Jonathan.

00:00:56:05 – 00:01:11:24
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Hey there. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us. I can’t wait for the team. Out of the team out there. I guess. Yeah. There’s the marketing chair side team, too. Here. Oh, and look, we’ve got another arrival after Pamela’s been.

00:01:12:08 – 00:01:14:11
Dr. Pamela Marzban
All my favorite people. Hello.

00:01:14:17 – 00:01:20:27
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Hey. So we are recording and no pressure, but we’re just counting on you all to be brilliant.

00:01:20:29 – 00:01:24:00
Dr. Pamela Marzban
That’s all here at all.

00:01:24:29 – 00:01:51:02
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
So, guys, we want to help dentists who are out there who maybe their practices just plateaued, or they see dentists like you just killing it—offices that seem to be way more successful than they feel like they’ll ever be. And they want to learn from you. But I figured a good place to start off with is what success looks like to you and whether or not you feel like you’ve you’ve achieved that.

00:01:51:03 – 00:02:09:28
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
I’ve been, to me, a successful practice is one that you have a steady new patient flow and you’re happy with what you’re doing. You’ve got a team that you can count on. But what does success look like to you guys? I’m wondering if everyone’s going to have the same answer. Maybe not. Well, let’s start with you. What does success look like to you?

00:02:11:23 – 00:02:31:19
Dr. Pamela Marzban
That is such a difficult question, right. And I don’t know if you guys like Wall Back or go dental tone. Ask me to actually write about this. There was a title on the cover of the magazine that I was fortunate enough to write on was The Secret of Our Success. And it made me really take a step back and think about what?

00:02:31:26 – 00:03:07:27
Dr. Pamela Marzban
How do you define success? And for everybody it is different. Jonathan, like you said, 100% agree. For me and I think even for each individual, you can decide to change your mind or modify your definition every three, four or five years of your life because our goals change. Right? What makes us happy and joyful changes. So for me, I find myself very fortunate and joyous to be able to practice the type of dentistry I want to practice with a team that is extraordinarily trained.

00:03:07:27 – 00:03:31:10
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So I’m surrounded by women that I enjoy working with, and I also get a chance to work on patients. I get to choose the patients that I know I can help and do it in a state of the art facility. So to me, that is a huge part of my success. And what I love about our profession and I know our profession is that I can do all that.

00:03:31:10 – 00:03:45:27
Dr. Pamela Marzban
And it still allows me it affords me time and finances to enjoy my personal side of life so that for me is what define success. And that’s what I’ve been shooting for and still aim to strive for every day.

00:03:46:00 – 00:03:52:04
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And so would you say that you’ve kind of achieved that or you’re starting to achieve it? You’ve got miles to go before you achieve it?

00:03:52:06 – 00:04:27:11
Dr. Pamela Marzban
I don’t think there’s a destination. There’s no stop point. It’s a forever story. Correct. Because I guess my stop point is when I die one day. Okay. Like, I don’t even like this dentistry. It’s a hard stop a lot. So it is. There’s no stop point. There’s no goal is a continuum. And every day, every week, every month, every year, we’re looking at our goals to give us to be able to afford to practice this way and then afford to have the personal lives that we, we, me and my team want to have to enjoy.

00:04:27:23 – 00:04:33:03
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So there’s no end game. This is forever going for me that I answer your question.

00:04:33:13 – 00:04:40:07
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Yes. Yes. I’m curious, Dr. Stephanie, how close does that mirror your vision of success and where you are on that journey?

00:04:40:19 – 00:04:58:17
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
So when you first ask the question, the word that came to mind for me was balance. And Pam kind of touched on that more at the end. It is a journey because when I first started to practice, it was, oh, you know, produce $1,000,000. I’m going to do I’m going to have this many chairs and I have this many patients.

00:04:58:22 – 00:05:23:01
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And then as as I developed as a as a dentist and a practitioner and a business owner, some of those things started to change. And especially with the dentistry that I’m doing, you know, one of my big goals that I have achieved is to be insurance free, you know, fee for service. So that was that was a huge milestone and a big accomplishment, especially when you start out maybe being all PPO or something like that.

00:05:23:01 – 00:05:39:19
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And I’ve worked in many facets of dentistry, so to have my own practice that I was able to do the way I wanted to was a success. That also then to be able to use that in my personal life where I have the time to travel, we love to travel. We go on trips and spend time with kids.

00:05:39:19 – 00:06:04:07
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
I’ve got three kids so that, you know, the youngest is going off to college, which is great. That’s a success. But now being able to practice the type of dentistry on the people that we want to see, knowing that we can help and that we can do it in in a really patient, focused manner, spending the time and and really getting to know people versus just, you know, drill, fill and bill, that’s that’s a whole different style.

00:06:04:07 – 00:06:13:11
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
So that would be, I guess, what I would add or amend a addendum for what I would say.

00:06:14:05 – 00:06:36:20
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And Shireen your office, I know has been on that journey for a while too. I’ve heard some great words that I would have never even thought to put on my whiteboard here. Joy, Balance. And I love milestones because I think that’s what people are looking for is that next milestone. How do I make that happen? What is your picture of success line up with that?

00:06:37:08 – 00:06:58:11
Shireen Firouzian
It does to a greater extent. I mean, all of our practices are really the same. I mean, you’ve got two on the panel right here, two incredible dentists. I’m not one. I support one wholeheartedly. But I think when you ask that first question, what is what do you define as success? I think, Jonathan, if you ask Dr. Kenzie or Dr. Marilyn, what is your definition of success?

00:06:58:11 – 00:07:15:27
Shireen Firouzian
Is doing the dentistry that I want to do and being able to have the team that’s there all the time. And if someone is having someone to be able to train that person and consistently move forward, if you ask an accountant, what is the secret to your dentist success, they’re going to say the numbers. If you ask financial planner, well, do they have retirement to be.

00:07:15:27 – 00:07:16:14
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Able to.

00:07:16:15 – 00:07:33:06
Shireen Firouzian
To finish at a certain time? You know, you can be doing dentistry at 90. If you ask your patients, they’re going to say, I want to make sure that Dr. Mashburn, Dr. Kinsey, are practicing forever. I don’t want to be able to I don’t want them to send me here and there and everywhere like other dentists did. That’s why I came to you.

00:07:33:13 – 00:07:53:21
Shireen Firouzian
So I think really at the end of the day, that balance personally is great. But how do you translate into a business that you want to have a legacy to retain and have long term? So I would say the one thing if one of your first questions on your list that you gave us is what have you done in your practice that has helped you get to success?

00:07:53:21 – 00:08:15:11
Shireen Firouzian
And that would be you’ve got dentists that have committed to training and educating and giving the opportunity to themselves to have this kind of success. And then how do you pass that on to people? Because one person is not going to be enough to give you that long term. You have to have people supporting you. Dr. Maslin asked me years ago, who is the accountability person for your doctor?

00:08:15:11 – 00:08:39:25
Shireen Firouzian
You always have to have someone holding them accountable. So a lot of those things require systems because I’m not getting any younger and I don’t planning on being around forever. I like to have systems in place. I want what we do to be replicable so that if something happens to me, there’s somebody behind me. Because the success level we have, it’s taken us years to be insurance free.

00:08:40:06 – 00:09:09:22
Shireen Firouzian
It’s taken us years to have the systems in place and it’s taken us a long time. We do have wonderful team that we truly adore. I think the one thing I’d add in to that and that one term would be authenticity, because if you really believe in the value of what you’ve created authentically, you build the relationships with your team, you build that relationship with your patients, and you bring in communication that allows the authenticity to be felt by your patients.

00:09:09:22 – 00:09:28:22
Shireen Firouzian
Because one of the things we talk about is, you know, we are going to with the level of training our dentist has, identify what we can see. And it’s going to be up to you once we inform you of all your choices to be able to choose what you want to do with it. And then what’s the next part of marketing that I think is the most important?

00:09:29:03 – 00:09:54:03
Shireen Firouzian
How do you help the patient desire what you see that they need? Because these dentists are the best in the world to me, nobody each one of them could have an island and in Hawaii or somewhere just with the amount of education they put into their team and themselves. But they don’t patients don’t really know how much you know, they know what they want.

00:09:54:03 – 00:10:09:25
Shireen Firouzian
And if we can communicate effectively all the personality styles for them to be able to desire what they want and what we know that our dentist can provide that will deliver the success that everything that everybody here said they desire.

00:10:09:28 – 00:10:30:26
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
What if Dr. Marzban, someone asked you or said to you, I’m just not sure I can justify investing in islands worth of training in myself and my team. Like, is that really going to be worth it? I mean, did you encounter that sort of internal pushback when you started your journey toward having a different kind of dental office?

00:10:31:27 – 00:10:59:22
Dr. Pamela Marzban
I’ve always had the mindset of build it and they will come, you know? And for me, if I believe in something enough, I’m completely like a straight arrow. I go for it and I never look back. Now, not everybody has that comfort zone or that maybe confidence even at 26. But the truth of the matter is this this education sharing is talking about it.

00:10:59:22 – 00:11:27:18
Dr. Pamela Marzban
It doesn’t happen in one year. It’s been ongoing for many, many years. And it’s not like I had any idea the size of the meal I was about to consume. It’s like I started that, you know, why is everybody grinding their teeth? You know, why am I making so many night cards at that time? And then once I started to learn what was new to me, the things that aid teachers in dental school, I realized how much I didn’t know.

00:11:28:01 – 00:11:52:01
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Which takes you to the next step. And then you realize, I think the more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know. I’ve spent countless dollars, like hundreds, thousands of dollars in education and hours, just like Stephanie has and Shereen and her husband have. But I just I didn’t know was going to go that route. It’s just every time I learned something, I realized I needed to take it a step further.

00:11:52:11 – 00:12:19:08
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So the investment goes in slowly and you can’t even digest and process and implement all that information at once anyways. You have to take it in bite sizes so it becomes more affordable. And to fight, you know, to wrap up the answer here, there’s no better investment you can make in than in yourself and in your own mind, because your patients, they hope and you do that.

00:12:19:08 – 00:12:42:25
Dr. Pamela Marzban
They’re hoping you’re bringing the best and the most up to date information. And that information that you carry, you also pass on to your team and your patients. Train touched on legacy that’s something now at this point in my career is weighing very heavy on my heart because I’m probably halfway through my career, all joking aside, and I’ve never thought about that up until a couple of years ago.

00:12:42:25 – 00:13:12:18
Dr. Pamela Marzban
It’s like, I can’t let this information go away with me. And what we know, what we’re exposed to is very different from the bulk of the dental population right now. It’s like, I would say maybe 5% in the entire world really understand and get into craniofacial development, airway and TMD and how it all comes together. So bite sized pieces, you know, how do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time, kind of concept and always spend money on yourself and your team?

00:13:13:04 – 00:13:40:15
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
I think that when you start thinking that way and training that way, the team has something to get excited about too. They feel like they’re part of building it. I know the investments that we’ve made in our team on the marketing side of things gets the excitement level up and they feel like we’re going in that direction rather than just surviving another month or doing another one more website or, you know, one more full mouth case.

00:13:40:15 – 00:13:54:28
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And that’s the finish line. No, no, no, no. We’re in a process. Right. Dr. Stephanie, how did you make the gut leap toward that, or were you one of those like Dr. Mars Band where you’re just like, this is the way we’re going and I have no doubts whatsoever?

00:13:56:03 – 00:14:20:12
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
Well, my my journey was a little more convoluted. I like Dr. Marzban, am very driven and set my sights on something and know I can do it. Had that confidence, but it was I moved. So I had a practice in Colorado and I moved to Florida. That’s a whole different thing. Taking the boards over all of that kind of rigmarole that that goes with with restarting.

00:14:20:12 – 00:14:53:17
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And so just from being in practice and seeing seeing people and wondering why when they have the very perfect feeling that you were taught to do in in dental school, they’re coming in with the back half of their teeth broken off. And it made me question. And then I had the good fortune to run into some instructors for a class that I was taking down in Orlando that introduced me to some science behind what I was seeing in people’s mouths and in my offices.

00:14:53:17 – 00:15:13:03
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And, you know, you when you see things that should go right and they aren’t going right and you want to know why and what Dr. Marilyn said, too, is the more you learn, the more you know you need to learn or you see that there is more out there. And so that progression is slow. I mean, I would love to jump in and try and learn it all at once.

00:15:13:04 – 00:15:30:03
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
That’s my personality. But but it was I mean, it was over years of, of just going back, applying, going back, applying and knowing that it was worth it because I was getting a higher level of service to my patients, was helping people get out of pain and being exposed to things that I didn’t know. And you don’t know what you don’t know.

00:15:30:03 – 00:15:49:13
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
I mean, you do it, you know, and you do it to the best of your ability. But when when your eyes are opened to something, I have the the need to pursue that so that I can offer the best level. If you don’t invest in yourself and you don’t invest in your team, it’s an uphill battle. Then you’re just spinning your wheels and you’re going to kind of just stay status quo.

00:15:49:19 – 00:16:06:10
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And so once you’ve made that investment, howdy, what are some other hurdles that you encountered along that journey to success and to finding your joy and being joyful, doing the type of dentistry that you want to do, what other roadblocks did you face? I mean.

00:16:06:18 – 00:16:30:09
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
Change is painful. People don’t like it. Not everybody. Not everybody likes to change. You know, they’re they’re happy in their in their in their ways. And that and even if they can see that, there might be some benefit, they’re afraid. So that’s part of your building, your team with like minded people and really taking the time to educate and and, you know, you’re going to run out.

00:16:30:10 – 00:16:46:24
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
You’re going to run against roadblocks, blocks, things that just don’t go exactly as you thought they would. But but that’s that’s part of the the growth and progression, too. And if you have faith and conviction in what you’re doing, then it’s going to turn out.

00:16:47:01 – 00:16:55:10
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
So with that fear of change, I mean, Shireen did you and your team encounter that resistance to change and what did you do about it?

00:16:55:14 – 00:17:21:20
Shireen Firouzian
I think it’s really nice exactly what Dr. Kinsey said. You will have obstacles and barriers, but I feel like in the last 25 years we had an office manager that retired a couple of years ago. We left her. She was with us almost 20 years just in her interviewing. She would say the one constant in Dr. Positions office is change, because technology, we’re going to be getting newer technology.

00:17:21:20 – 00:17:42:17
Shireen Firouzian
And I promise you the first one that’s going to get it is Dr. Mike. If we and I remember going into purchasing the digital scanner, there were so many choices at Williams. Bob gave us a little mini at the Suoi conference. He gave us a little mini viewing of all the different ones that would see us itero and all of the choices that were coming out.

00:17:42:17 – 00:18:09:12
Shireen Firouzian
And I pay the bills. The least expensive was the Kodak one, and I thought, okay, that’s the one we were going to get. And I remember a day Mike came in the office and he said, This is the best one. I don’t care what you have to do to get it. I am not I’m not going to compromise on getting the best because I’m going to be using this multiple times every single day, and I’m going to get the one that’s the best for him because I’m doing dentistry, that’s the best.

00:18:09:25 – 00:18:33:00
Shireen Firouzian
And so you have that kind of commitment to what you’re doing. You’re going to adapt to constant, newer technology that does things better, that’s more efficient, that’s more accurate and precise. So again, comes down to communication. When you have the obstacle, there’s no communication. You haven’t had a meeting in them in the months, you haven’t had huddles, you haven’t had.

00:18:33:06 – 00:18:53:03
Shireen Firouzian
So sometimes the obstacles are because there’s a lack of understanding of why we do what we do, whether it’s with the patient or whether it’s with the team. And when it becomes adapted to by everyone and everyone understands it, your manager is going to have the interview and she’s going to say, look, if you’re comfortable with change, then this is the place for you because we’re going to be ahead of the curve.

00:18:53:21 – 00:18:58:12
Shireen Firouzian
So it kind of comes full force. It just makes things happen easier.

00:18:58:12 – 00:19:24:24
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
So, Dr. Martin, what would you say to someone who said, that’s all fine, well, and good for you guys, but I could never I don’t think I could ever do that in my practice, not in my location or not not in my socio economic world, in my area. Is that a legit concern? Do you think that’s impossible for some people to do it, or do you think that as far as you know, anyone could do it if they’re determined enough and have the stomach for it?

00:19:26:01 – 00:19:47:07
Dr. Pamela Marzban
I think anyone can do it if they’re determined enough and have the stomach for it. I think location is irrelevant because Stephanie, Shireen and I, you know, we see we work with colleagues all across America and in different parts of the world like in India where they’re not even exposed to like they don’t have access to some of the things we do.

00:19:47:18 – 00:20:17:07
Dr. Pamela Marzban
If they’re if if this is important, you find a way to make it work that it doesn’t matter what the socioeconomic status is of your location. There’s ways to work around that because everybody suffering for us in our practices, again, we do. We’re very airway centric. So to me, this is a massive health crisis that is not going to go away and not in my lifetime, none of my children’s or their children’s lifetime, because people’s faces are developing wrong.

00:20:17:16 – 00:20:51:27
Dr. Pamela Marzban
And that’s why so many people suffer from temporomandibular disorder, sleep, sleep disorder, breathing. So to me, the need is there, the lack of diagnosing the issue is the problem. And once people understand what to look for and how to diagnose correctly, you don’t have to do it exactly that way to help people. There’s things you can do every step of the way, whether it’s an infant or an adult, whether they have $100 or thousands of dollars in time, all the things that’s important to your patients.

00:20:52:11 – 00:21:06:16
Dr. Pamela Marzban
And there’s ways to make people start feeling better, looking better and functioning better. So location, that’s just a hurdle that people can make as to use as an excuse because they’re scared to take that leap of faith, if you will.

00:21:07:01 – 00:21:22:01
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And I think a lot of it comes down to a word that you guys have all I think mentioned at some point in your answers here, insurance doctor Stephanie, can you tell me about your journey in extracting yourself from insurance contracts?

00:21:22:19 – 00:21:45:25
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
Sure. Long and painful? No, I had to take it a little bit at a time because, you know, you have bills to pay. You have people that whose lives you were responsible for. And I was in a position where it was predominantly insurance. And so we ran some statistics and looked at see to see which which one was was costing us the most.

00:21:45:25 – 00:22:11:10
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And it started there and kind of did. So it did MetLife first and, and then some of the umbrella policy. So people have the denim acts that have a bunch of different plans under them that are all on a fee schedule. And so just kind of slowly and through that, you learn how to do it too. You don’t want to just send a letter to everybody going, Hey, we’re out because patients misinterpret.

00:22:11:10 – 00:22:46:11
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
They think they’re not allowed to come see you. And that’s definitely not the case. And you want to give them the opportunity. So you want to have a plan for it. You use you slowly. You you talk to people as they’re coming in. You can talk to them through the hygiene department about our relationship with your insurance company is changing and we’re going to work with you is going to help you file for it so that you get reimbursed this this kind of thing and answer their questions so that if they have some concerns and you can talk with the relationship that you have, that that makes a difference, you’re going to lose a percentage,

00:22:46:11 – 00:23:07:27
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
but you can minimize that percentage by doing it personally versus something like a letter. And and we found that people came back, you know, they went someplace else and they went, oh, yeah, I’m not treated as well. And this this is more important to me. I feel comfortable here. I feel like I’m getting a high quality of service and and know that you’re doing right by me.

00:23:07:27 – 00:23:11:05
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
So, you know, give people the chance to to make the right decision.

00:23:11:13 – 00:23:13:26
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Shireen did you have a similar experience that.

00:23:14:07 – 00:23:40:25
Shireen Firouzian
You know, we we kind of became easy for us because insurance actually one of our insurance companies dropped their allowable in the contract by over 30%. So when you’re doing the kind of dentistry you do, you doctors know and you have CEREC making a crown for you and it’s not a downgrade of all because it’s all porcelain, you just aren’t going to be able to do it much longer.

00:23:40:25 – 00:24:03:06
Shireen Firouzian
So it became easy and we had the again goes back to communication how you communicate it with your patients. We are very comfortable since we’re no longer aligned with insurance, explaining that insurance does not like you to get the quality of service that you deserve. And our relationship with our patients will always be our relationship with our patients.

00:24:03:18 – 00:24:28:02
Shireen Firouzian
Regardless of how many insurances you have, we’ll still maximize it for you and allow you to get the best treatment that you deserve, not be limited by what your insurance allows. So we’re still filing for patients, we’re still helping them and maximizing their benefits. But the nice thing is one of one of the best things that I ever heard was Doctor Durham and Savannah.

00:24:28:03 – 00:24:46:17
Shireen Firouzian
I’ll bring his words to to the table. He would tell patients, if you are really going to allow your insurance to focus on what kind of treatment you deserve, and you start on one tooth one year by the time you’re done with the number of teeth that you have, you got to start back on that first tooth again.

00:24:47:10 – 00:25:07:03
Shireen Firouzian
And I really focus on getting patients to the ideal health of teeth that they can be, so that when they retire and no longer have the kind of insurance funds that they relied on, they just have to maintain what they’ve they’ve had as ideal treatment. But if we really focus on insurance, then insurance is going to win, not the patient.

00:25:07:23 – 00:25:29:01
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And you mentioned in developing a desire, the other two doctors you mentioned, you know, getting people to understand that there is a quality difference that people came back. So, Sheri, what role did marketing play in that? Was it more a boots on the ground communication or did you was marketing involved? And it’s well, one of the.

00:25:29:01 – 00:25:47:10
Shireen Firouzian
Things that I love about marketing, when I first started doing the running the business side of it because insurance is essentially a kind of marketing, right? I mean, when you’re on insurance plans, you’re you’re write off is what you’re committing to cost of marketing because those are the patients that are coming and you’re writing off and that’s what got the patient to you.

00:25:47:23 – 00:26:19:18
Shireen Firouzian
Well, you have to pay to get the kind of I always thought, how do you target what is the first question they ask in marketing courses is what is your target patient? Well, what is the best marketing you can have working for you to get that target and patient? I always and how is that possible? Well, marketing was then the key for us when I do my monthly meetings and I go through and I literally have a spreadsheet since 2019 that I monitor every dollar that comes in and which avenue I’ve spent it on.

00:26:19:18 – 00:26:42:04
Shireen Firouzian
And I’ve, I’ve done some stuff outside of you, Jonathan, but I’ve, I’ve tracked those and they’ve never been as good, but I’m always trying to test when I check in I see and I go see those reports with Jared and I see that sometimes in a month, even more than half of my quality oriented lead patients of TMJ, it is a target patient that we want and we know we can help.

00:26:42:15 – 00:26:52:15
Shireen Firouzian
Comes in through the organic building of what you’ve created for us over the last ten years. I’m like, Hooray, that’s just fantastic.

00:26:53:00 – 00:26:54:03
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
I’m like, Great too.

00:26:54:15 – 00:27:17:19
Shireen Firouzian
I know. I mean there. But the rest of it is also marketing that you’re doing for me. So as long as that is working, I used to think, okay, what I spent this month I’ve easily recovered and what I got back. But as time goes on, because we’re getting to the point where we’re not going to be doing this forever, I want there to be some strong content that keeps the targeted patient coming to me.

00:27:17:19 – 00:27:38:15
Shireen Firouzian
And I love the idea that there’s no companies. I mean, I’m throwing this as a support to you, of course. But one of the biggest keys to marketing for me has been it’s hard to find someone out there that can guarantee what they do. And from the get go, you always told me, I don’t have a contract with you because I don’t work for you.

00:27:38:15 – 00:28:03:16
Shireen Firouzian
Then I’m. You’re going to you’re going to fire me. And so this is my guarantee that I’m going to be working for you. And that’s probably the one thing that kept me. Everybody else wanted me for ten years or minimum, what, 15 months? But that’s the key to marketing, is really finding the targeted patient that will allow you the nicest part about these two dentists on this panel is that they can do everything.

00:28:03:16 – 00:28:46:19
Shireen Firouzian
There’s something for every patient in their office that they can deliver, whether it’s implant dentistry, full mouth reconstruction, sleep dentistry. I mean, I always tell patients we can provide you healthy airway at night or we can give you incredible airway day and night by correcting the underlying bite. So it’s a matter of having the opportunity to sit with that patient that’s then brought in with healthy marketing that is able to communicate effectively that these are the dentist for you, and then giving them a chance through the tools and the systems in place that allows them to see what they need and a dentist that can communicate effectively how it’s going to be effective for them

00:28:46:19 – 00:28:54:21
Shireen Firouzian
long term. And it’s quality investment for them to commit to instead of a car that’s going to depreciate the moment they drive it off the car lot.

00:28:54:27 – 00:29:20:23
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Dr. Kinsey Dr. Marvin there. If you have anything to add on the marketing side of things, like if you had not marketed your practices, do you think that or the way that you do, do you think that you would be achieving the same level of success or like organically not organic SEO, but just naturally through referrals and being known by people in your areas, that type of practice.

00:29:21:03 – 00:29:40:07
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
All right. Well, marketing is so key. While you really want to have a lot of internal referrals from your patients, I mean, that speaks and it’s it’s free in a way. The target marketing for the type of dentistry that we can do to be able to help people. I have people travel from two states, different states to come for this type of treatment.

00:29:40:07 – 00:30:02:18
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And they’ve been to so many people who have not been able to help them that without that marketing, you’re not going to reach them. And so I think that we do a bigger service to people to to be able to reach a wider, a wider range and not just the geographic area. I mean, I live in a smaller area and not in a in a big city.

00:30:02:18 – 00:30:23:22
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And and so, you know, my neighborhood isn’t going to have enough TMJ people for me to help for for ten years, you know, and so you have to be willing to invest in the marketing side of things to be to bring in the people that that you can help and who will appreciate the help that you’re able to give them.

00:30:24:24 – 00:30:53:12
Dr. Pamela Marzban
For me, it’s very different because I’m just outside of Washington, DC and it’s extremely populated and literally within like a five mile radius. There are countless dentists, countless. And this is a very sophisticated area. So I know you do. Marketing is very important. I want to highlight something Stephanie just said. Word of mouth is huge and our internal referrals from our patients are always the best referrals to begin with.

00:30:53:12 – 00:31:28:26
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So we really have a strong emphasis on it and rewarding our patients and getting going in more internal referrals. Also because of the quality of care and attention, everything’s tailored to that person. So that experience alone will get them to walk out of here and talk about it, which is really important. But you have to external market because one, most of the people again don’t know what it is that we do or such a thing even exists out of the common dentist or a medical doctor doesn’t understand the form individual dysfunction, how we can help people with our sleep disorder issues.

00:31:28:26 – 00:32:05:20
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So writing, writing is a big thing that I do in my practice and I put it in magazines and it’s about putting good content out there, but indirectly also marketing myself as an expert. Correct. And then the optimization and having great website that’s extremely relevant. So the where our profession is going, if people want to have the type of practices that are our three offices and embody which they’re being called in coined unicorn practices, which is really sad because that means they’re not very many that are that special.

00:32:05:20 – 00:32:32:27
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Right. But right now our profession is being swallowed by corporate and mid-level providers and, you know, small practice like mine cannot compete with the amount of money that corporate will throw into marketing. But I have to do my side of things to fend for my practice, my business, and also to let people know what it is that we can do to help.

00:32:33:28 – 00:33:06:09
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Because I don’t want them to go to the dentist next door. They’ll do good things for them in some ways, but they’re not going to be able to see and do what I can do for that person. So I need to get patients to pick me, see me, you know, find me, find me and my team. So with that being said, if anybody wants to be able to practice the type of dentistry that they dream of and be patient centric and do with the right team, and in a state of the art facility, they’ve got to market themselves internal and externally.

00:33:06:09 – 00:33:29:16
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And to me, the frog that just leapt out of my mouth, I feel like one commonality between all your practices that I’ve seen is that you invest in photography and video to tell that story. I mean, I heard you say you believe to see and hear what you’re capable of doing. Dr. Kinsey, do you feel like that’s part of the secret sauce?

00:33:29:16 – 00:33:35:03
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Is that a decision that you would make again and again, or is that absolutely window dressing?

00:33:35:05 – 00:34:05:20
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
No, no, absolutely. Because people and especially now, you know, we’re in this split second society, instant gratification. So you got to catch some of these high stories that our patients tell and to be getting out of pain to get their life back. You know, this sleep disorder breathing is so huge to to to what we do, being able to have a testimonial in a video, it’s real when it’s just right there live and in the patient’s own words versus versus a commercial.

00:34:05:20 – 00:34:24:06
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And commercials are great. It gets the word out to a lot of people, but that really touches people’s hearts. And other people can identify that that are having the same types of issues. And so then can recognize that, hey, this dentist is different and maybe, maybe that’s who I need to go see versus just somebody off a list.

00:34:24:06 – 00:34:25:02
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
I saw someplace.

00:34:25:17 – 00:34:38:29
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Shireen, Dr. Marzban, either of you have experience with video that you would say is indispensable or do you think that’s low on list is should that make our top five invest in photography and video?

00:34:39:16 – 00:34:56:23
Shireen Firouzian
Absolutely. I mean, photography for sure. I think when you talk about training from the get go, we’ve all we’re all used to taking pictures. And every time Dr. Mike, Dr. Marzban and Dr. Kinsey go and they have another training my a functional therapy now we take pictures of the time now we take pictures of this slice of the side of the airway.

00:34:56:23 – 00:35:21:27
Shireen Firouzian
Now we do so constantly documenting those pictures. And then when a case goes really well, finding the opportunity, when the patient is so emotional to actually sit and capture that it’s not always easy to do it. That’s probably the hardest thing possible because sometimes the team members are so focused on care and all of the protocols. So we don’t miss a single beat because this has been so by changing.

00:35:21:27 – 00:35:47:13
Shireen Firouzian
You got a document. Document. So having the right person that can capture the moment where they can sit and say, you know what, Sally, would you please tell us what it was like finding us? Did we deliver what you were hoping for? Asking the right probing words that get the results so they can actually have their story impact somebody else to find their way to us.

00:35:48:08 – 00:36:16:27
Shireen Firouzian
That’s probably the number one. Does it get always done? If I were to be very honest with you, not always. But the pictures always do get done. One of the things we actually added is we found an incredible photographer recently off site and she does a glamorous shoot and she is the one that’s happy. Emotional attachment attaches to the patient in an authentic way and she creates a set up with food and drink if they like it.

00:36:16:27 – 00:36:41:11
Shireen Firouzian
And she’ll do a whole visual imaging. And that’s where they share their story incredibly well, because they don’t have to be the same personality in the office. They are with us. They can be they’re totally happy out of their cell personality and actually get it captured. And then we’ve actually seen them share a little tag theme that they would call us and they put it on their image and we can share it.

00:36:41:11 – 00:36:47:19
Shireen Firouzian
So it takes a little bit longer. But boy, does that have a bigger impact on in marketing.

00:36:47:29 – 00:37:12:25
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And Dr. Marvin, I don’t know if you have anything to add to that, but I definitely wanted to catch you about your team. You have this longevity team. I’m just curious what it took to foster that and if someone’s got a lot of turnover issues, how can they I mean, did you ever have a turning point or learn something that was the key to having that continuity in your practice?

00:37:12:25 – 00:37:36:21
Dr. Pamela Marzban
I put a lot of sugar in the Mars band Kool-Aid, and they drink a lot that yeah. First of all, I just want to say being a female business owner is completely different than being a male business owner. And we are in the female profession, but it’s usually with the team, okay, but it is a female dominated profession.

00:37:37:04 – 00:38:12:15
Dr. Pamela Marzban
However, sadly, a lot of women do not help each other with their crowns. And as a female, especially when you’re very young, most people, most other females are not going to like you because they’re they’re older than you and you’re their boss, or sometimes they want to be you or be your best friends. Okay. But if you invest in your team and you treat them with respect and show them your strengths as a leader when you have the right team and that Bond connects with these women and men, for that matter.

00:38:12:15 – 00:38:33:07
Dr. Pamela Marzban
But mine are all women. Just coincidentally, that connection is tight, and it’s because they see that you’re constantly investing in them. Taking them places is funny because we just came back from the Dominican Republic doing some outreach and one of my assistants, she’s been with me going on 20 now she’s like, this is now yet another first with you.

00:38:33:19 – 00:38:56:17
Dr. Pamela Marzban
She’s like, You’ve been so many of my firsts in my life. Thank you. You know? And so it’s just and we’re having a team meeting today talking about like the fact that our patients here sometimes they don’t know who is always the doctor. The hygienist or whatever. And it’s because as as their leader, as the doctor. And I’m sure Mike does this and Stephanie does this.

00:38:57:11 – 00:39:16:05
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Is that you you have to put your team. You have to escalate their weight in front of a patient. So I you refer to your team and you always let them acknowledge and give them credit to their knowledge base. And each one of them has to put in their time to learn and implement, understand it and get the stuff.

00:39:16:23 – 00:39:34:17
Dr. Pamela Marzban
But it’s tough. It’s really, really tough to have people that support you. But it’s got to you’ve got to show them that first is just like any relationship that you’re going to hopefully get what you put in reciprocated and then they get pregnant or they move and all that stuff.

00:39:34:17 – 00:39:36:01
Shireen Firouzian
Always they retire.

00:39:37:07 – 00:39:52:08
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Or are they retire? But yeah, you know, that’s I’m very grateful and lucky to have these women and truly they are like my family away from my family spend more time with them, need any and it’s, you know, it’s a blessing.

00:39:53:06 – 00:39:57:28
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Dr. Kinsey, anything to add to that as we kind of close out the show here?

00:39:57:28 – 00:40:17:25
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
You know, team the team can make or break you. Yeah. And base. They also spend more time talking with the patient on a more personal level. I mean, as much as I know about my patients and and and certainly feel close to them, they’re going to talk to my team about things. They’re not going to talk to me about.

00:40:18:00 – 00:40:42:27
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And and so they they you want them to be a reflection of you. You want them to be empowered to be able to represent you and and and to take care of the patient at the highest level. And and that requires investing in them in yeah, there’s there’s turmoil. There’s everybody got to go home for six weeks, eight weeks, couple of years ago that, you know, it, it changed the landscape of things.

00:40:42:27 – 00:41:04:25
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
But when you’ve got your team and it’s always a process because, you know, new people are coming in, that dream is talking about having those systems in place so that that it’s as seamless as you can make it as you get more people on board in your process to make sure that you don’t lose that quality, you don’t lose that the intimacy or the relational part of it.

00:41:04:25 – 00:41:22:17
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
But still but still being able to provide that high level of service and and investing in them. And what Pam said is so important, acknowledging them in front of the patient and giving them the credit that they’re that they’re due and and and building them up just makes everybody better.

00:41:22:25 – 00:41:40:08
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And out of all of this that we’ve talked about, let let’s start with you, Shireen. What is the number one tip you would give someone who just feels like, I don’t know, honestly, that DSO offer is looking pretty good right now. I’m about ready to get the heck out of here.

00:41:40:17 – 00:41:58:01
Shireen Firouzian
You know, I think I always I mean, the question that you asked Dr. Marisa and you were asking about what do you do with the person that says, I don’t think that’s going to work for me. Just take one course. You know, you may have a dislocated that’s going to be really good as long as you get to keep your autonomy.

00:41:58:02 – 00:42:18:28
Shireen Firouzian
It may not be a bad thing if it’s in the stage of life that you need it to be. As long as you get to do the dentistry that you need. Because in the last 25 years, watching Mike do what he does, and I’m sure it’s the same for you, Dr. then. Dr. Kinsey every time that we feel a little bit Oh, I don’t know what I’m getting tired.

00:42:19:08 – 00:42:39:13
Shireen Firouzian
He takes another class and immediately comes back, ramped up, ready to go. I think probably one of the things we’ve done a little bit less is maybe not take as many team members because there have been turnover, there are some team members that no matter what you do, they’re always going to be I don’t know, but and you can’t change that.

00:42:39:13 – 00:42:59:05
Shireen Firouzian
And I think that is something that I recognize. Some of them have been to all the classes and they just don’t want an update, but they are committed to learning what we give them to learn. Since COVID, the desire to travel for team has changed. So we’ve done group on Zoom classes and they still are excited and energetic.

00:42:59:17 – 00:43:10:25
Shireen Firouzian
But what keeps you motivated to continue doing? You do tends to be training not just for the dentist but for the team. So take a class and see what you think. That’s what I would say.

00:43:11:00 – 00:43:34:25
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And Dr. Marzban and I didn’t even think about it until just now, but this podcast episode could literally be like a life and death thing, because I’ve known dentists that have killed themselves because they’re just so miserable in their day to day life. So turning a corner like that, what’s the number one? I mean, not talking someone off the ledge, but what’s the number one recommendation, Doctor?

00:43:34:25 – 00:43:41:16
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
One has been everything we’ve talked about or something else to someone who’s just like, I’m miserable. I don’t have joy.

00:43:41:23 – 00:44:08:12
Dr. Pamela Marzban
We always have a choice. There’s always a choice. I’m never going to poo poo anybody for decisions that they make. If somebody wants to sell out to it, that’s up to them. I could never practice that type business model ever. That would kill my soul. It’s not why I wanted to dentistry. What I do is actually tell that person, take a step back and think about what got you burnt out and it’s quite often feeling uninspired.

00:44:08:22 – 00:44:32:20
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So how do you get inspired? Most of us who went into becoming a doctor where we love knowledge and we want to learn and that excites us. So get inspired, learn something. Also the other thing you can is mentorship. When you mentor somebody, it usually, I don’t know, it just ignites something in my in my soul. And I found that a lot of my colleagues feel the same way.

00:44:32:20 – 00:44:58:22
Dr. Pamela Marzban
So find that new dentist and teach them something or teach your team to whomever. But mentorship is huge. And then the other thing you can do to get yourself re-inspired is do some type of outreach. Giving back is I think I wish is something everybody would do. And I know sometimes we don’t have the time or the money to do it, but you can do it at different scales, right?

00:44:59:05 – 00:45:20:23
Dr. Pamela Marzban
But when you really do something just out of the goodness of your heart, whether somebody sees it or not, but it’s actually because of your skill set. You know, it’s not like I just cut a check to St Jude, but it’s because I’m giving something that nobody else can do that’s pretty huge. That reminds you of why you went to dental school to begin with and it takes you back to your little kid dreams again.

00:45:20:23 – 00:45:27:06
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
And Dr. Kinsey, how about you? What’s your number one tip for a dentist looking for some sort of help to get a leg up?

00:45:27:14 – 00:45:56:15
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
Yeah, let’s see. Number one, that’s hard. It’s hard to consolidate into one, but definitely there’s a different way. If what you’re doing isn’t fulfilling you and and is having a negative impact, then know that there is a different way. So, you know, reach out to somebody who inspires you or a colleague that has what you think is the type of practice that you want so that you have some collaboration.

00:45:56:15 – 00:46:17:20
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
I think so. So often get stuck in their little box and and don’t have that camaraderie. And that’s one of the things that’s so special about the dentist that do the type of dentistry that we do is that, you know, when we are learning, we have the time and we have all of these other avenues to be able to collaborate and know that you’re not alone.

00:46:17:29 – 00:46:44:02
Dr. Stephanie Kinsey
And even if you feel like you’re alone, you’re not alone and know that there are lots of people willing to help you achieve what it is that you want and why you why you started there in the first place. I mean, nobody goes into something trying to set themselves up to be miserable. So I think to keep that perspective and know that you can make a change and it doesn’t have to be all at once, but even even some little things it can turn can turn around and and make it better.

00:46:44:07 – 00:47:05:27
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Well, you guys all have offices that are evidence that it’s worth doing. It’s hard making these changes. I’ve heard these stories and and many more. And it seems like, gosh, it’s a different way of practicing. And you do get that joy and balance back. Speaking of balance, you guys got to get back to work. I really appreciate your time.

00:47:07:01 – 00:47:07:23
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Thank you all.

00:47:07:23 – 00:47:08:03
Shireen Firouzian
For.

00:47:08:27 – 00:47:10:05
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Watching to be here.

00:47:10:24 – 00:47:13:18
Dr. Pamela Marzban
Yes, great to see you guys. Thank you for having me.

00:47:14:20 – 00:47:40:15
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Thanks very much. Thanks, Dr. Kinsey. Thanks, Shireen. Thanks, Dr. Marzban. Thank you for watching or listening or, you know, social media. In our show today, you can like subscribe, follow through all that cool stuff. Maybe you think we missed something or you think, you know, you disagree that success is different. It should look different and let us now do that in the comments.

00:47:40:23 – 00:47:57:04
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
We’re going to condense these tips in to the description as well. And until next time. Thanks again for watching, Martin. The site, good lord, is hotter than Hades in here. I mean, I might see this thing. Gosh, I’m just I’m melting.

00:47:57:14 – 00:48:05:02
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
I’m thinking I’m melting. Oh, yeah.

00:48:05:02 – 00:48:09:04
Jonathan Fashbaugh (Host)
Okay.